Exploring the Limits of Ultrarunning with Nicolas Berger, PhD #200
Episode overview:
Dr. Nicolas Berger is a Senior Lecturer in Sport & Exercise at Teeside University’s Centre for Rehabilitation. In this episode we discuss Nic’s new study on the limits of ultramarathon performance, which brings together a who’s-who of researchers in the ultramarathon space to create a framework of performance that will be foundational for years to come. We focus on the myriad of factors that influence performance outside of pure fitness including GI distress, psychology, durability, and the integrative way in which these factors combine to affect performance.
Episode highlights:
(28:26) Stephen Seiler’s chart: physiological improvement plateaus with time in trained athletes but performance does not, performance is multifactorial, during longer duration events multifactorial factors matter more, examples, small changes with big impacts
(43:40) Malleable strategies: recognizing that strategies must change based on environmental factors, example, gastric emptying, cycling example, taking advantage of features of the race
(46:54) Durability: Andy Jones and physiological resilience, how we perceive fatigue matters more than the physiology itself, nerve blocking example
Our conversation:
(0:00) Introduction: Nic’s new pioneering study, the research team behind it, ultramarathons are an interdisciplinary endeavor, read the paper (a few times)
(2:29) Nic’s background: cycling banter, growing up in Germany and going to school in England, getting into sports science, working with Andy Jones from Breaking2, working with Paula Radcliffe, moving to Teeside
(7:14) Pedigree and mentorship: Koop’s early career, being around top coaches and athletes, being forced to be professional
(8:32) The effects of training on VO2 kinetics: Nic’s PhD, practical application to coaching
(9:28) Setup for Nic’s paper: preparing for the inaugural UESCA conference, the physiological determinants of ultramarathons, encapsulating a diverse field, Nic’s esteemed coauthors and previous KoopCast guests
(12:34) Writing Limits of Ultra: a 3 year undertaking, reaching out to the superstars of ultra research, initial rejection and rewriting the paper, improving cohesion and flow
(16:15) Physiological factors for ultras: see table 4, 20-25 different factors, addressing the heavy hitters such as fatigue, GI distress, thermoregulation, nutrition and hydration, decision making, minimizing physical damage, motivation
(18:45) Evolutionary context of ultrarunning: Drew Best (KoopCast 157), limitations to the “born to run” philosophy, thermoregulation and energy reserves, persistence hunters likely ran for up to 5.5 hours, humans were also born to dig and throw
(22:11) Ultrarunning is WEIRD: Western Educated Industrialized Rich Democracy, ultra endurance running is novel, revisiting the limitations of being “born to run”, focus on non-training aspects
(25:08) Fitness versus other factors: statistically not an obvious limiting factor in ultramarathons, but it makes all of the other limiting factors easier, GI distress example, other factors may be more limiting
(26:42) Sharon Gayter: treadmill record holder, “unremarkable VO2max”, she nails all other aspects of ultra endurance, pacing example
(28:26) Stephen Seiler’s chart: physiological improvement plateaus with time in trained athletes but performance does not, performance is multifactorial, during longer duration events multifactorial factors matter more, examples, small changes with big impacts
(31:52) GI distress prevalence: the most downloaded KoopCast episode, aid station example, everybody has GI distress, conflicting information about nutrition, individuality is key, trying new aid station food on race day
(35:18) GI distress factors: 96% of people at Western States experienced GI distress, most dropouts are related to GI distress, race intensity, flavor fatigue
(36:59) Integrated GI distress: section 6 in the paper, heat acclimatization, cooling strategies, over and under-hydrating
(38:30) Heat, cooling, and hydration: critical, accessible, and simple interventions, menthol mouth rinse example, ice slushies, hypernatremia and hyponatremia
(40:49) Psychology in ultrarunning: the top predictor of GI distress is previous GI distress, changing nutritional behavior to affect physiology, anxiety, top athletes use self talk
(43:40) Malleable strategies: recognizing that strategies must change based on environmental factors, example, gastric emptying, cycling example, taking advantage of features of the race
(46:54) Durability: Andy Jones and physiological resilience, how we perceive fatigue matters more than the physiology itself, nerve blocking example
(48:46) Perception and durability: RPE scales, RPE changes with duration at the same pace, mitigating feelings of fatigue, Lindsay Golich and environmental factors example, additional effort from trying to process environmental factors
(52:12) Long-term athlete development: learning to race, training experience and perception, novice runners when they exceed their longest long run, the gap of unknown
(54:23) Replicating event demands: night running, altitude, changing clothes, confidence from experience, sacrificing workout quality for confidence and specificity
(57:01) Missing training runs: fitness is not everything, 10k training versus ultra training example, sacrificing maximizing fitness to address other limiting factors, perception of fatigue example
(59:15) The challenges of studying ultras: example of measuring oxygen uptake at Tor de Geants, gathering subjects
(1:00:49) Lab versus field studies: controlling variables versus real-world specificity, lack of useful field data, logistical challenges of running ultras, running economy example
(1:03:42) Recruiting subjects: challenges, examples, the number one problem in sports science research
(1:04:36) Blindspots in ultramarathon training: examples, no one single lacking domain, everything adds up, individuality
(1:07:20) No easy answer: banter, character limits, factors like mileage and VO2max are only important in conjunction with everything else, avoid people who claim to have one good answer
(1:09:01) Wrap-up: where to find Nic, future applications of the research, recognizing Nic’s research team
(1:10:45) Outro: giving thanks, check out Nic’s paper, subscribe to Research Essentials for Ultrarunning for more content, discussing carbon fiber shoes, share the KoopCast
Additional resources:
Nic’s profiles-
Limits of Ultra: Towards an Interdisciplinary Understanding of Ultra-Endurance Running Performance
SUBSCRIBE to Research Essentials for Ultrarunning
Buy Training Essentials for Ultrarunning on Amazon or Audible
Information on coaching-
Koop’s Social Media
Twitter/Instagram- @jasonkoop