The Business of Ultramarathon Coaching-Hosted by Dirk Friel with Jason Koop, Heather Hart and Jeff Browning #203
Episode overview:
Coaching industry veteran and Training Peaks’ co-founder Dirk Friel takes over the KoopCast to discuss the business of ultramarathon coaching. The panel of coaches and coaching business owners includes Jason Koop, Heather Hart owner/founder of Hart Strength and Endurance Coaching and Jeff Browning who owns his own coaching company.
Episode highlights:
(13:50) Jeff and Heather’s startup experience: technology and marketing background, taking baby steps, making the move to full-time coaching, transitioning from flexible gig jobs
(57:44) Heather on recruiting assistant coaches: Heather’s experience, admitting assistant coaches, your reputation is on the line, UESCA certification, networking but not actively recruiting
(1:50:23) Jason on coach-athlete ratios: athletes require roughly 1 hour per week, 40 athletes for a 40 hour work week, most CTS coaches are full time, Jason is able to take ~1 new athlete per year
Our conversation:
(0:00) Introduction: Dirk Friel hosts the KoopCast, introducing Heather Hart and Jeff Browning, transparency about revenue, athlete load, and business details, giving thanks to Heather and Jeff, bigger is not better, there is no best coaching model, athletes come first
(3:37) Framing the discussion on getting coaches to join this episode: getting permission from CTS to air the podcast, Dirk as a neutral moderator, reaching out to guests, request for transparency, context for non-responses and declines to join the podcast
(6:15) Dirk takes over: giving thanks, banter, a new type of content, relevance to coaches and athletes choosing coaches
(7:27) Recruiting coaches for the podcast: early coaching was guarded, pulling the veil back, understanding resistance to transparency, good coaching is good for coaches
(10:26) Transparency helps coaching: legitimizing coaching as a career path, establishing standards, improving the coaching space, recognizing discussions around income are taboo
(11:09) Starting out in coaching: lack of pricing info online, Jeff on entering the coaching space from a marketing background, learning best practices from industry standards, challenges with getting information
(13:50) Jeff and Heather’s startup experience: technology and marketing background, taking baby steps, making the move to full-time coaching, transitioning from flexible gig jobs
(15:50) Jason’s startup experience: stumbling into an internship at CTS from biochemistry, business and mentorship aspects taken care of by the Olympic Training Center and CTS, you don’t have to build a coaching business from scratch
(18:20) Entrepreneurial learning gaps: The E-Myth, being a good coach does not make you a good entrepreneur, Heather’s strengths in coaching and marketing, gaps with business knowledge
(20:38) Jeff on entrepreneurial learning gaps: bookkeeping, accepting your strengths and weaknesses, leveraging other people for bookkeeping, technological aspect of coaching,
(23:16) Jeff on becoming a coach: motivating and connecting with people, endurance background, embracing your passion, the early days of ultrarunning, business management, “embrace the suck”, leveraging other specialists and business coaches
(27:16) Jason on entrepreneurial learning gaps: starting as an employee, learning how to coach, mentorship and reinforcement of good practices, learning to become a good manager
(29:25) Jason on growing into the business of coaching: becoming Vice President of operations, the development of new markets, mentorship from John Frothingham of USADA, expanding markets, coaching quality assurance programs, gratitude for mentorship
(31:26) Jason on independent contracting: relationship with CTS, commission from ultrarunning coaching, role as a figurehead and primary mentor for CTS ultrarunning coaches, Training Essentials and the KoopCast are independent
(35:14) Business structure: S Corp versus LLC, Heather’s website, Heather and Jeff on sharing the business with their partners, CTS as a C Corp
(37:03) Heather on business revenue: total business revenue of $97,000, Heather and her husband are paid as employees, coaches are paid by the number of athlete clients
(37:53) Jeff on business revenue: a 4-year business cycle, hiring 3 assistant coaches this year, $150,000 4-year average, ebbs and flows, influx of athlete roster, cutting back on training and family time, decreasing income to invest in the business, income breakdown
(40:56) Banter: running a business with your spouse
(41:27) Jason on business revenue: CTS’s annual ultrarunning coaching subscription revenue of $1.1-1.2mil, 380 athletes, Jason’s net business income revenue of $330,000 from many sources, revenue is not income, $15,000/month salary draw
(42:50) Jason on contractors and expenses: business, social media, KoopCast post-production, technical consulting for Research Essentials, technical editors and producers for Training Essentials, $4-5,000/month investment in travel to races
(44:39) Jeff on investing: the aforementioned business revenue includes income from being a sponsored athlete, motivational speaking, writing, design consults, investing in a custom website platform, 5 and 10 year plans, app creation and automating onboarding
(47:17) Jeff on athlete load: athlete count in the mid-30s plus mentorship duties
(48:00) Heather on investing: continuing education, examples, time is money, considering marketing and crewing, sponsoring local races, investing in FinalSurge as a coaching platform, technical expenses add up
(50:18) Funding continuing education: Heather on creating cont. ed. budgets for assistant coaches, Jason on cont. ed. budgets at CTS, Jeff on podcasts and research, ideas for funding assistant coach certifications
(53:25) Learning from supporting athletes at races: helping athletes with crewing, examples, money spent supporting athletes is always worth it
(56:07) Jeff and Jason at Hardrock: learning from other coaches, banter
(57:44) Heather on recruiting assistant coaches: Heather’s experience, admitting assistant coaches, your reputation is on the line, UESCA certification, networking but not actively recruiting
(1:00:22) Heather on onboarding coaches: full time versus part time, 70%-30% or 95%-5% revenue split, onboarding process depends on coaching experience, practice clients for new coaches
(1:02:33) Jeff on recruiting assistant coaches: Jeff’s niche in ancestral nutrition and longevity-oriented training, branding conundrum, onboarding previous athletes with similar coaching philosophies, sticking to the Jeff Browning Brand
(1:05:49) Jeff on assistant coach revenue: 70%-30% split, 50%-50% split for group coaching, details, goals
(1:07:07) Jason on recruiting assistant coaches: expertise in recruiting and training over 100 coaches, institutionalizing coaching philosophy, hiring female coaches
(1:08:50) CTS screening process: public recruiting and networking, reducing 50-70 resumes to 10, looking for applicants with a basic understanding of exercise science, good communication, and interest
(1:11:00) Triathlon coaches and ultrarunning: credibility from the consumer side, coaching perspective, Nick White and Craig Alexander, elite ultramarathon athletes want ultramarathon coaches
(1:12:23) CTS hiring process: the “coaching college”, high-performance coach mentorship, those who survive scrutiny make it through
(1:14:23) CTS coach revenue model: coach-recruited versus CTS-recruited athletes, bonus model based on athlete retention, approximate 60%-40% model, 75%-25% for coach-recruited athletes, having a bonus for retention
(1:17:20) Coaching quality assurance: based on coach retention, backlash from coaches, better coaches have higher retention
(1:19:19) Non-disclosure agreements (NDAs): Heather’s reason for not using NDAs, coaches leaving the business, letting athletes choose where to go
(1:21:35) Jeff on buyout clauses: creating a draft, looking ahead and covering your bases, having an agreement on paper
(1:23:39) Jason on coaches leaving CTS: setup, NDAs, non-solicitation agreements, buyout clauses, something growing businesses require, legal agreements are usually for negotiation and leverage, examples
(1:27:56) NDAs and Non-solicitation agreements as a safety net: good protection but only truly enforced in nefarious cases, you never know who might try to take advantage of your business
(1:30:03) Legal agreements as a screening tool: Jason on taking new coaches through the full legal document, onboarding coaches with existing businesses, matching revenue and legal exceptions
(1:32:35) Onboarding coaches with related businesses: avoiding cannibalizing businesses, maintaining coach and athlete models
(1:34:34) Transitioning athletes between businesses: coaches with businesses joining CTS, transitioning athlete payments at logical times,
(1:36:00) Assistant coaches with separate athletes: Heather on challenges with transparency, coaches becoming overloaded
(1:37:14) Heather on pricing: coaching services are worth more than what is charged, considering accessibility to athletes
(1:39:57) Heather on coach-athlete ratios: variability between coaches, newer coaches have fewer athletes, personal example of coaching 5-45 athletes, part time coaches have ~10 athletes
(1:41:29) Heather on different price tiers: challenges with having different pricing between coaches, one flat rate across the board, exceptions for triathlon and adventure racing
(1:42:48) Jeff on coach-athlete ratios: 34 athletes currently, example of having too many athletes and compromising service, recognizing your ceiling
(1:44:03) Jeff on price points: premium coaching, increasing pricing over the years, easing athletes into new price points, options between $157 and $357/month, group coaching details
(1:46:15) Assistant coaches becoming full-time: growing from 6-10 athletes, taking things on a coach-by-coach basis, growing as an organic process, the importance of athlete communication
(1:49:00) Dirk on creating price points: creating price points based on health club memberships, faxing and phone calls
(1:50:23) Jason on coach-athlete ratios: athletes require roughly 1 hour per week, 40 athletes for a 40 hour work week, most CTS coaches are full time, Jason is able to take ~1 new athlete per year
(1:53:13) Minimum coach-athlete ratios: contractors need to be able to handle at least 10-12 athletes, you need a certain amount of practice as a coach to be proficient
(1:54:31) Pricing at CTS: coach experience determines pricing tier, three coaching tiers of select (~$225/month), premium (~390/month), and ultimate (~$600-700/month), time spent is still ~1hr/athlete/week
(1:56:08) Jeff on additional services: experimenting with new services, leveraging technology, motivational speaking and consulting, selling static plans, camps and Krissy Moehl, camps are a challenging business model, fat metabolism course
(1:59:27) Additional services based on athlete demographic: movement assessment example, median athlete age is 45, addressing movement and nutrition, imbalances
(2:01:50) Heather on additional services: circumstantial on-demand training plans, occasional consulting, Heather’s writing
(2:02:44) Jason on Training Essentials: writing the book and working with elite athletes established CTS in ultramarathon running, early ultramarathon runners didn’t want coaching, producing materials for UESCA, Research Essentials is a great product that loses money
(2:05:01) Service and support projects: supporting Timothy Olson on the Pacific Crest Trail, camps are great service but a tough business, CTS ultrarunning camps, avoiding static plans
(2:07:17) Jason on entrepreneurial mistakes: trying to maximize coaching potential, too many athletes results in poor service, the 1hr/athlete/week rule for a 1:1 service model, the cap on leveraging service delivery, hope for AI
(2:10:20) Dirk on triathlon, cycling, and ultrarunning: evolving business opportunities, no market in marathon running, pioneering career paths in ultrarunning
(2:12:12) Jeff on coaching mistakes: trying to generalize training, appreciating athlete background and individuality, recognizing age and athlete goals
(2:14:50) Heather on business mistakes: hire a business coach, scope of knowledge, the value of coach experience
(2:17:12) Learn to tell your athlete no: mismatches in philosophy, don’t always be a “yes” person, being honest tactfully
(2:18:53) Heather and Jeff on work-life balance: working 7 days a week, pleasing athletes can go too far, examples, learning when to turn off
(20:20:50) Jason on growing markets: recognizing market growth, underestimating the running market, Training Essentials and UESCA certification examples
(2:23:18) Heather on future trends: coach education, once the ultrarunning market plateaus some businesses will naturally fall out of the marketplace
(2:25:20) Jeff on future trends: AI, a future budget coaching option, why AI and personal coaching won’t compete, AI will help coaches
(2:26:48) Jason on future trends: considering AI, transitioning from free coaching for elite athletes to sponsor-paid coaching for elites
(2:29:04) High performance coaching model: encompassing all necessary services into one system, coordination amongst athlete support services
(2:30:55) Wrap-up: Dirk’s podcast, appreciating transparency
(2:31:55) Outro: giving thanks, share the KoopCast, links to Heather and Jeff
Additional resources:
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SUBSCRIBE to Research Essentials for Ultrarunning
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Buy Training Essentials for Ultrarunning on Amazon or Audible
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